24 November 2005, 15:29 UTC#31
QUOTE(funk master steven @ Nov 24 2005, 09:25 AM)
but gman, worst case scenario, what if this new admin is a total cock hole
I have become spoiled to "free speech" what if I like diss his company or his admin ship?
and if he does become a greedy powerful over lord, do we have the permission to bring him down?
[right][snapback]227417[/snapback][/right]
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --
That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
24 November 2005, 15:30 UTC#32
QUOTE(Nuggeto @ Nov 24 2005, 03:29 PM)
QUOTE(funk master steven @ Nov 24 2005, 09:25 AM)
but gman, worst case scenario, what if this new admin is a total cock hole
I have become spoiled to "free speech" what if I like diss his company or his admin ship?
and if he does become a greedy powerful over lord, do we have the permission to bring him down?
[right][snapback]227417[/snapback][/right]
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --
That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
[right][snapback]227421[/snapback][/right]
yeah but this is a forum and gman lives in spain
but thats basicly what I was getting at, if this guy is a cock hole, me and nuggeto get the permission to take his ass out right?
24 November 2005, 15:31 UTC#33
QUOTE(Duran @ Nov 24 2005, 03:28 PM)
how much money do u need gazaa?
[right][snapback]227418[/snapback][/right]
I can donate 30 bucks, but everyone would need to donate phat bucks
24 November 2005, 15:31 UTC#34
Heres a idea though.
Stop giving away FREE hosting... Stop giving away Video hosting.
I saw you have a Payment MOD installed why not use that? get members to signup for a year and they get space for files and images only.
You can also stop the adds for paying members... have ONLY paying members have Avatars and Paying members can use a forum taht only they get into where groups put new videos.
Just a idea... And ifi t was something like $20 for 6months id do it now
I can think of more things... give e time
24 November 2005, 15:32 UTC#35
QUOTE(Doyle @ Nov 24 2005, 03:31 PM)
Heres a idea though.
Stop giving away FREE hosting... Stop giving away Video hosting.
I saw you have a Payment MOD installed why not use that? get members to signup for a year and they get space for files and images only.
You can also stop the adds for paying members... have ONLY paying members have Avatars and Paying members can use a forum taht only they get into where groups put new videos.
Just a idea... And ifi t was something like $20 for 6months id do it now
[right][snapback]227425[/snapback][/right]
id pay to be a member at this forum, like 5 bucks a year if thats what it took
24 November 2005, 15:33 UTC#36
That would fix it but it would make me unhappy, I dont like when places do stuff like that.. this sucks though gman thanks for running the place so well the past few years.
24 November 2005, 15:33 UTC#37
QUOTE(funk master steven @ Nov 24 2005, 09:30 AM)
QUOTE(Nuggeto @ Nov 24 2005, 03:29 PM)
QUOTE(funk master steven @ Nov 24 2005, 09:25 AM)
but gman, worst case scenario, what if this new admin is a total cock hole
I have become spoiled to "free speech" what if I like diss his company or his admin ship?
and if he does become a greedy powerful over lord, do we have the permission to bring him down?
[right][snapback]227417[/snapback][/right]
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --
That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
[right][snapback]227421[/snapback][/right]
yeah but this is a forum and gman lives in spain
but thats basicly what I was getting at, if this guy is a cock hole, me and nuggeto get the permission to take his ass out right?
[right][snapback]227423[/snapback][/right]
Then we need our own constitution and declaration Of Independ.
24 November 2005, 15:34 UTC#38
I dont think 5 bucks would cut it. I think from 10-20 for 6months. it will keep money coming in and also make the admins work more cos the ywill get the cash in 6 months again.
24 November 2005, 15:34 UTC#39
QUOTE
Heres a idea though.
Stop giving away FREE hosting... Stop giving away Video hosting.
I saw you have a Payment MOD installed why not use that? get members to signup for a year and they get space for files and images only.
You can also stop the adds for paying members... have ONLY paying members have Avatars and Paying members can use a forum taht only they get into where groups put new videos.
Just a idea... And ifi t was something like $20 for 6months id do it now
Yeah but then there is the issue of people paying to be able to do something they could do for free..
24 November 2005, 15:35 UTC#40
QUOTE(Nuggeto @ Nov 24 2005, 03:33 PM)
QUOTE(funk master steven @ Nov 24 2005, 09:30 AM)
QUOTE(Nuggeto @ Nov 24 2005, 03:29 PM)
QUOTE(funk master steven @ Nov 24 2005, 09:25 AM)
but gman, worst case scenario, what if this new admin is a total cock hole
I have become spoiled to "free speech" what if I like diss his company or his admin ship?
and if he does become a greedy powerful over lord, do we have the permission to bring him down?
[right][snapback]227417[/snapback][/right]
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --
That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
[right][snapback]227421[/snapback][/right]
yeah but this is a forum and gman lives in spain
but thats basicly what I was getting at, if this guy is a cock hole, me and nuggeto get the permission to take his ass out right?
[right][snapback]227423[/snapback][/right]
Then we need our own constitution and declaration Of Independ.
[right][snapback]227430[/snapback][/right]
yeah we would wouldn't we, well were getting ahead of ourselvs, first question is
nuggeto could you bring down this forum
24 November 2005, 15:35 UTC#41
QUOTE(Greg @ Nov 24 2005, 04:33 PM)
That would fix it but it would make me unhappy, I dont like when places do stuff like that.. this sucks though gman thanks for running the place so well the past few years.
[right][snapback]227429[/snapback][/right]
But dude... Gman has tried alot to set stuff up for himself but to be honest the thing thats killed him is he is too nice. he gives shit aay.
if everyone wants to keep HGF and keep it run like it is then sorry but the easy time is over... and if he did do a payment thing then everyone would stay but paying members get cool things.
24 November 2005, 15:36 UTC#42
First Eddie, then the ugly dog, then HGF Image file not present in the recovered backup
24 November 2005, 15:36 UTC#43
QUOTE(Doyle @ Nov 24 2005, 03:34 PM)
I dont think 5 bucks would cut it. I think from 10-20 for 6months. it will keep money coming in and also make the admins work more cos the ywill get the cash in 6 months again.
[right][snapback]227432[/snapback][/right]
damn, 20 bucks every 6 months, thats quite a bit of cash
I'll pay it thought if gman will keep the forum, but I know there are others who said they couldn't even pay the 1 a month hosting gman was trying to institue ahwile back
24 November 2005, 15:38 UTC#44
Damn I wish I won powerball Image file not present in the recovered backup
24 November 2005, 15:38 UTC#45
QUOTE(Got Milk? @ Nov 24 2005, 04:34 PM)
QUOTE
Heres a idea though.
Stop giving away FREE hosting... Stop giving away Video hosting.
I saw you have a Payment MOD installed why not use that? get members to signup for a year and they get space for files and images only.
You can also stop the adds for paying members... have ONLY paying members have Avatars and Paying members can use a forum taht only they get into where groups put new videos.
Just a idea... And ifi t was something like $20 for 6months id do it now
Yeah but then there is the issue of people paying to be able to do something they could do for free..
[right][snapback]227433[/snapback][/right]
yeah they can get stuff for free. But on the forum (Which people use alot) they wont get things like avatars and maybe SIGS... or some other things. And also here's a idea.... Gman makes a Archive of all videos.... and only paying people get into it. And people who post new videos get the mt o stay up for awhile then there in the archive.... yeah you can get them from the sites but its a service.
yeah you can go to a diff forum and get a avatar but id want one here where I post and also want people to see I help HGF out.
24 November 2005, 15:39 UTC#46
im just glad your not ending the forum... that would make me very sad... these forums are pretty much my life besides my space
24 November 2005, 15:39 UTC#47
QUOTE(funk master steven @ Nov 24 2005, 04:36 PM)
QUOTE(Doyle @ Nov 24 2005, 03:34 PM)
I dont think 5 bucks would cut it. I think from 10-20 for 6months. it will keep money coming in and also make the admins work more cos the ywill get the cash in 6 months again.
[right][snapback]227432[/snapback][/right]
damn, 20 bucks every 6 months, thats quite a bit of cash
I'll pay it thought if gman will keep the forum, but I know there are others who said they couldn't even pay the 1 a month hosting gman was trying to institue ahwile back
[right][snapback]227440[/snapback][/right]
Then those people can still post... everything is the same. They just dont get a avatar and a sig... Oh and the video forum
24 November 2005, 15:41 UTC#48
Use
http://www.studiotraffic.com/QUOTE
Sign up now, and StudioTraffic will give you a Free $10 account level. Then, all you need to do is log into your account, click on the Surf STV button, and watch. A new window will open for you, and show you our advertiser’s web sites, on a 20-second timer. Once you have viewed your allocated number of sites, you will be credited with 1% of your account level. With a free account, that’s $0.10 a day! It’s that easy. You can also choose to upgrade your account to earn even more! Remember that there is NO OBLIGATION TO PAY ANYTHING, EVER. Use Surf STV as long as you wish, for free. You can earn between $0.10 up to $200 a day, depending on your account level, for about an hour of surfing. On top of that, you will earn credits that you can use to advertise your own website. We have thousands of members using Surf STV at any time. That’s thousands of people ready to spend money at your website. Think about it. Where else can you earn money for advertising your site?
24 November 2005, 15:41 UTC#49
unlucky, at least it will still go on
24 November 2005, 15:43 UTC#50
QUOTE(Doyle @ Nov 24 2005, 03:39 PM)
QUOTE(funk master steven @ Nov 24 2005, 04:36 PM)
QUOTE(Doyle @ Nov 24 2005, 03:34 PM)
I dont think 5 bucks would cut it. I think from 10-20 for 6months. it will keep money coming in and also make the admins work more cos the ywill get the cash in 6 months again.
[right][snapback]227432[/snapback][/right]
damn, 20 bucks every 6 months, thats quite a bit of cash
I'll pay it thought if gman will keep the forum, but I know there are others who said they couldn't even pay the 1 a month hosting gman was trying to institue ahwile back
[right][snapback]227440[/snapback][/right]
Then those people can still post... everything is the same. They just dont get a avatar and a sig... Oh and the video forum
[right][snapback]227447[/snapback][/right]
god dammit, nothing good is never free for long lol
but c'mon where homegrown fucking forums, we can think of a way to use our videos to somehow power this site
gman how much traffic do we get, maybe we can try to make a link dump site for hg videos that people watch, an ebaums world of things, but only our vids, I'd donate my best clips, I think everyone else would as well
then you can sell some adds and get phat paid
24 November 2005, 15:46 UTC#51
Shame on your for not PMing me first. But I'll just say it here, as it's everyone buisness.
$2000 is out of my leauge, and I truly want you to get as much as you can for this place. But if shit hits the fan and you have problems selling this place, this is what I can do:
I can do $1500, but I'm not sure how much I can pay upfront. I think I can do about $1,000 upfront, and pay the rest the following month. If the person who is funding BLIXFILMS comes through, I may be able to give you a little more in the future. I will do my best.
For what its worth, if you do to choose to take me up on my offer, I have no intentions of changing anything on this forum or demodding anyone, and as you probally already know...Id have the current Admins run it, cause I dont know shit about the admin cpanel.
Just let me know whats going on...as all the people who visit my site will tell you, I was going to use that money to buy a camera this weekend, but this is much more important to me.
24 November 2005, 15:48 UTC#52
WEAK, thats really nice of you man. <3
24 November 2005, 15:52 UTC#53
yeah weak you rock, but I dunno if its just me or not but isnt $1500 alittle much for a website?
24 November 2005, 15:52 UTC#54
QUOTE(funk master steven @ Nov 24 2005, 09:43 AM)
QUOTE(Doyle @ Nov 24 2005, 03:39 PM)
QUOTE(funk master steven @ Nov 24 2005, 04:36 PM)
QUOTE(Doyle @ Nov 24 2005, 03:34 PM)
I dont think 5 bucks would cut it. I think from 10-20 for 6months. it will keep money coming in and also make the admins work more cos the ywill get the cash in 6 months again.
[right][snapback]227432[/snapback][/right]
damn, 20 bucks every 6 months, thats quite a bit of cash
I'll pay it thought if gman will keep the forum, but I know there are others who said they couldn't even pay the 1 a month hosting gman was trying to institue ahwile back
[right][snapback]227440[/snapback][/right]
Then those people can still post... everything is the same. They just dont get a avatar and a sig... Oh and the video forum
[right][snapback]227447[/snapback][/right]
god dammit, nothing good is never free for long lol
but c'mon where homegrown fucking forums, we can think of a way to use our videos to somehow power this site
gman how much traffic do we get, maybe we can try to make a link dump site for hg videos that people watch, an ebaums world of things, but only our vids, I'd donate my best clips, I think everyone else would as well
then you can sell some adds and get phat paid
[right][snapback]227453[/snapback][/right]
For real dude, I would help out as much as I could. I mean how could you go wrong with a video like this
Larry's danceorama24 November 2005, 15:53 UTC#55
QUOTE(Nuggeto @ Nov 24 2005, 03:52 PM)
QUOTE(funk master steven @ Nov 24 2005, 09:43 AM)
QUOTE(Doyle @ Nov 24 2005, 03:39 PM)
QUOTE(funk master steven @ Nov 24 2005, 04:36 PM)
QUOTE(Doyle @ Nov 24 2005, 03:34 PM)
I dont think 5 bucks would cut it. I think from 10-20 for 6months. it will keep money coming in and also make the admins work more cos the ywill get the cash in 6 months again.
[right][snapback]227432[/snapback][/right]
damn, 20 bucks every 6 months, thats quite a bit of cash
I'll pay it thought if gman will keep the forum, but I know there are others who said they couldn't even pay the 1 a month hosting gman was trying to institue ahwile back
[right][snapback]227440[/snapback][/right]
Then those people can still post... everything is the same. They just dont get a avatar and a sig... Oh and the video forum
[right][snapback]227447[/snapback][/right]
god dammit, nothing good is never free for long lol
but c'mon where homegrown fucking forums, we can think of a way to use our videos to somehow power this site
gman how much traffic do we get, maybe we can try to make a link dump site for hg videos that people watch, an ebaums world of things, but only our vids, I'd donate my best clips, I think everyone else would as well
then you can sell some adds and get phat paid
[right][snapback]227453[/snapback][/right]
For real dude, I would help out as much as I could. I mean how could you go wrong with a video like this
Larry's danceorama[right][snapback]227462[/snapback][/right]
dude the name of that video made me laugh my ass off
24 November 2005, 15:55 UTC#56
QUOTE(funk master steven @ Nov 24 2005, 09:53 AM)
QUOTE(Nuggeto @ Nov 24 2005, 03:52 PM)
QUOTE(funk master steven @ Nov 24 2005, 09:43 AM)
QUOTE(Doyle @ Nov 24 2005, 03:39 PM)
QUOTE(funk master steven @ Nov 24 2005, 04:36 PM)
QUOTE(Doyle @ Nov 24 2005, 03:34 PM)
I dont think 5 bucks would cut it. I think from 10-20 for 6months. it will keep money coming in and also make the admins work more cos the ywill get the cash in 6 months again.
[right][snapback]227432[/snapback][/right]
damn, 20 bucks every 6 months, thats quite a bit of cash
I'll pay it thought if gman will keep the forum, but I know there are others who said they couldn't even pay the 1 a month hosting gman was trying to institue ahwile back
[right][snapback]227440[/snapback][/right]
Then those people can still post... everything is the same. They just dont get a avatar and a sig... Oh and the video forum
[right][snapback]227447[/snapback][/right]
god dammit, nothing good is never free for long lol
but c'mon where homegrown fucking forums, we can think of a way to use our videos to somehow power this site
gman how much traffic do we get, maybe we can try to make a link dump site for hg videos that people watch, an ebaums world of things, but only our vids, I'd donate my best clips, I think everyone else would as well
then you can sell some adds and get phat paid
[right][snapback]227453[/snapback][/right]
For real dude, I would help out as much as I could. I mean how could you go wrong with a video like this
Larry's danceorama[right][snapback]227462[/snapback][/right]
dude the name of that video made me laugh my ass off
[right][snapback]227463[/snapback][/right]
You watch it? I just found it on here and was lol so I uploaded it.
24 November 2005, 15:56 UTC#57
QUOTE(Nuggeto @ Nov 24 2005, 03:52 PM)
QUOTE(funk master steven @ Nov 24 2005, 09:43 AM)
QUOTE(Doyle @ Nov 24 2005, 03:39 PM)
QUOTE(funk master steven @ Nov 24 2005, 04:36 PM)
QUOTE(Doyle @ Nov 24 2005, 03:34 PM)
I dont think 5 bucks would cut it. I think from 10-20 for 6months. it will keep money coming in and also make the admins work more cos the ywill get the cash in 6 months again.
[right][snapback]227432[/snapback][/right]
damn, 20 bucks every 6 months, thats quite a bit of cash
I'll pay it thought if gman will keep the forum, but I know there are others who said they couldn't even pay the 1 a month hosting gman was trying to institue ahwile back
[right][snapback]227440[/snapback][/right]
Then those people can still post... everything is the same. They just dont get a avatar and a sig... Oh and the video forum
[right][snapback]227447[/snapback][/right]
god dammit, nothing good is never free for long lol
but c'mon where homegrown fucking forums, we can think of a way to use our videos to somehow power this site
gman how much traffic do we get, maybe we can try to make a link dump site for hg videos that people watch, an ebaums world of things, but only our vids, I'd donate my best clips, I think everyone else would as well
then you can sell some adds and get phat paid
[right][snapback]227453[/snapback][/right]
For real dude, I would help out as much as I could. I mean how could you go wrong with a video like this
Larry's danceorama[right][snapback]227462[/snapback][/right]
is that your brother?
24 November 2005, 15:58 UTC#58
QUOTE(MattG @ Nov 24 2005, 09:56 AM)
QUOTE(Nuggeto @ Nov 24 2005, 03:52 PM)
QUOTE(funk master steven @ Nov 24 2005, 09:43 AM)
QUOTE(Doyle @ Nov 24 2005, 03:39 PM)
QUOTE(funk master steven @ Nov 24 2005, 04:36 PM)
QUOTE(Doyle @ Nov 24 2005, 03:34 PM)
I dont think 5 bucks would cut it. I think from 10-20 for 6months. it will keep money coming in and also make the admins work more cos the ywill get the cash in 6 months again.
[right][snapback]227432[/snapback][/right]
damn, 20 bucks every 6 months, thats quite a bit of cash
I'll pay it thought if gman will keep the forum, but I know there are others who said they couldn't even pay the 1 a month hosting gman was trying to institue ahwile back
[right][snapback]227440[/snapback][/right]
Then those people can still post... everything is the same. They just dont get a avatar and a sig... Oh and the video forum
[right][snapback]227447[/snapback][/right]
god dammit, nothing good is never free for long lol
but c'mon where homegrown fucking forums, we can think of a way to use our videos to somehow power this site
gman how much traffic do we get, maybe we can try to make a link dump site for hg videos that people watch, an ebaums world of things, but only our vids, I'd donate my best clips, I think everyone else would as well
then you can sell some adds and get phat paid
[right][snapback]227453[/snapback][/right]
For real dude, I would help out as much as I could. I mean how could you go wrong with a video like this
Larry's danceorama[right][snapback]227462[/snapback][/right]
is that your brother?
[right][snapback]227467[/snapback][/right]
Yes it is.
Weak, man that would be fucking awsome if you did that........
24 November 2005, 15:58 UTC#59
QUOTE(Nuggeto @ Nov 24 2005, 03:55 PM)
QUOTE(funk master steven @ Nov 24 2005, 09:53 AM)
QUOTE(Nuggeto @ Nov 24 2005, 03:52 PM)
QUOTE(funk master steven @ Nov 24 2005, 09:43 AM)
QUOTE(Doyle @ Nov 24 2005, 03:39 PM)
QUOTE(funk master steven @ Nov 24 2005, 04:36 PM)
QUOTE(Doyle @ Nov 24 2005, 03:34 PM)
I dont think 5 bucks would cut it. I think from 10-20 for 6months. it will keep money coming in and also make the admins work more cos the ywill get the cash in 6 months again.
[right][snapback]227432[/snapback][/right]
damn, 20 bucks every 6 months, thats quite a bit of cash
I'll pay it thought if gman will keep the forum, but I know there are others who said they couldn't even pay the 1 a month hosting gman was trying to institue ahwile back
[right][snapback]227440[/snapback][/right]
Then those people can still post... everything is the same. They just dont get a avatar and a sig... Oh and the video forum
[right][snapback]227447[/snapback][/right]
god dammit, nothing good is never free for long lol
but c'mon where homegrown fucking forums, we can think of a way to use our videos to somehow power this site
gman how much traffic do we get, maybe we can try to make a link dump site for hg videos that people watch, an ebaums world of things, but only our vids, I'd donate my best clips, I think everyone else would as well
then you can sell some adds and get phat paid
[right][snapback]227453[/snapback][/right]
For real dude, I would help out as much as I could. I mean how could you go wrong with a video like this
Larry's danceorama[right][snapback]227462[/snapback][/right]
dude the name of that video made me laugh my ass off
[right][snapback]227463[/snapback][/right]
You watch it? I just found it on here and was lol so I uploaded it.
[right][snapback]227465[/snapback][/right]
LMAO dude that was great shit
24 November 2005, 15:59 UTC#60
QUOTE(Nuggeto @ Nov 24 2005, 03:58 PM)
QUOTE(MattG @ Nov 24 2005, 09:56 AM)
QUOTE(Nuggeto @ Nov 24 2005, 03:52 PM)
QUOTE(funk master steven @ Nov 24 2005, 09:43 AM)
QUOTE(Doyle @ Nov 24 2005, 03:39 PM)
QUOTE(funk master steven @ Nov 24 2005, 04:36 PM)
QUOTE(Doyle @ Nov 24 2005, 03:34 PM)
I dont think 5 bucks would cut it. I think from 10-20 for 6months. it will keep money coming in and also make the admins work more cos the ywill get the cash in 6 months again.
[right][snapback]227432[/snapback][/right]
damn, 20 bucks every 6 months, thats quite a bit of cash
I'll pay it thought if gman will keep the forum, but I know there are others who said they couldn't even pay the 1 a month hosting gman was trying to institue ahwile back
[right][snapback]227440[/snapback][/right]
Then those people can still post... everything is the same. They just dont get a avatar and a sig... Oh and the video forum
[right][snapback]227447[/snapback][/right]
god dammit, nothing good is never free for long lol
but c'mon where homegrown fucking forums, we can think of a way to use our videos to somehow power this site
gman how much traffic do we get, maybe we can try to make a link dump site for hg videos that people watch, an ebaums world of things, but only our vids, I'd donate my best clips, I think everyone else would as well
then you can sell some adds and get phat paid
[right][snapback]227453[/snapback][/right]
For real dude, I would help out as much as I could. I mean how could you go wrong with a video like this
Larry's danceorama[right][snapback]227462[/snapback][/right]
is that your brother?
[right][snapback]227467[/snapback][/right]
Yes it is.
Weak, man that would be fucking awsome if you did that........
[right][snapback]227469[/snapback][/right]
hahaha thats good stuff
(once again a topic gone off topic)
