confiscating cameras

You hafta be careful about this stuff. Your protection from search and seizure only protect you from government entities searching your things and seizing your property. This right does NOT apply to private individuals while on their private property. If you are on private property your trespassing which can be considered a felony if your coming on the property to commit a criminal act no and the private citizen has the right to confiscate your things and search you at anytime on his property if your unlawfully there, as long as he turns it into an official as evidence once he presses charges.
Example: Shopping Mall Security can stop you at any time and search you at any time being a shopping mall is privately owned. Same goes for business owners.

In many states, such as mine I work in, using pepper spray is a gross misdemeanor unless it is used for self defense. Self defense is constituted as protecting your life in immediate danger of severe injury or death. Theft does not fall into self defense unless the person is physically hurting you, and you better have cuts and bruises to prove it.

More on it in this artical: http://www.nolo.com/article.cfm/objectID/D...104/143/127/ART

Scroll down until you see the orange box and read it, they give the example of a security gaurd, but this applys to all people not acting in a offical government capacity.

(Before you question my credibility I have been in law enforcment for 3 years, I am not saying this to prove anyone wrong, but to offer some advice from this inside to you guys)

criminal trespassing on private property that’s open to the public? I dont think so... Maybe if they were told to leave and didn't, or continued to come back.

And nah, using mase in crime prevention is totally legal.

even places with rent-a-pigs have the no-chase policy. Reason being is that they dont want to risk a lawsuit. Id imagine if they are to scared to subdue theives, then them physically seizing your property isnt very likely..

I mase, I retrieve, I run. I LOL.

I really like this dgodlewski guy, he's very helpful.

Wow we have a cop in here guys, watch what you say. Image file not present in the recovered backup

I arrest you for aggervated assault... trump card.

Even if the mall is open to the public, or a buisness is, they have the right to ask anyone to leave at anytime. And they dont need to tell you to leave if your there to commit a crime. And im willing to bet if they are taking your camera, they have already told u to beat tracks.

Some malls have a no chase policy.... the mall in my city has the "whipe the floor with the punks ass" policy. No two malls are alike.

and lol...mace "crime prevention?" crime prevention is a program to stop crimes before they are commited...not to use after a crime has been commited.

A citizens arrest ONLY gives you the right to detain the person until the police arrive, it gives you NO authority to press charges, or use force on an individual. The people who try to take shit on themselfs end up being arrested as well for violating the person they are detainings rights, because they think citizens arrest means police power. IF you all could do it on your own, why would there even be cops? I will post the case law on this also.

Anything else?

Looks like WEAK has some comp going on here...

I dont trust this guy ,but that may be because he is a cop

There is no way I could do anything to any of you. I have nothin to gain here. Notice I am offering advice on how to STAY OUT of trouble, not get into it.


And Im not here to compete with WEAK, he is the reason I started coming here, his shit is great. I love it. I am posting to offer you guys insight into how things work and dispell all the rumors and false info that could potentialy send you to jail if you act on it.

Would you arrest me before or after you wash the mase out of your buring eyes? I really doubt some dumb fuck trying to take away my camera would turn out being an off duty copy. Actully, we went around Target several years back and followed this guy who was an off duty copy and taunted him on camera. We were filming on private property, but no, neither him or security did shit. Because what youre talking about may be law, but rarely enforced.

And as for the mall, once again from experinece, mall security has never once attempted to take my camera or touch me. Like many other places, they do not get phyisical or chase. They ask you to leave or they call the police.

You seriously think a security guard will "detain" you? They can put you under citizens arrest if thats what youre talking about. So can I. So can anyone. But can they sue my employer for millions if I commit false imprisonment? Nah. Cause Im not a company. I have no money to be sued for. But can someone sue them? Yes. And that is why the shit youre talking about doesnt happen.

And yeah, mase in crime prevention. The act of preventing a crime dude, I went all over it in the beginning of this thread. You said something along the lines of it only being legal to use mase in self defense of great bodily harm or some shit. Thats not true.

If you witness a crime, the law permits you to put that person under citizens arrest under certain cirumstances, and you are permitted use non-deadly force...IE MASE.

See this is why I am posting... you dont even know the diffrence between detaining and arrest. YOU AS A PRIVATE CITIZEN DO NOT HAVE THE POWER TO ARREST. You as a citizen have the power to DETAIN someone until the police arive to ARREST them. That is citizens arrest.

give me 2 days and ill have all the case law laid out, just takes time to find it.

Im sure you'll prove me wrong in many ways. Makes no difference. There is the law, and then there is the laws that are actually enforced. Kids who film in malls dont get drop kicked, beat down, and slammed with a dozen charges. Theyre asked to leave.

Malls arent the focus. Its the uptight pricks walking on the public streets who see you filming and get paranoid and go "hey you, you cant do that, stop that". My advice is that if that douche bag tries to take your camera, defend yourself and do what you can to keep your property in your possession.

okay I said Citizens Arrest, not arrest. And by that, I meant tackling you and restraining you...like for when you have a weapon or are in a fight.

and detain...as in stopping you and questioning you before letting you go on...

rather sad that youre tryin as hard to prove me wrong by my use of words when youve totally missed the whole point to begin with.

My point is your giving bad advice in this specific situation...which if one of these kids takes to heart can fuck them over. I will be going over the posts and putting up a reply point by point with legit resourses to give the proper advice, and to establish my credibilty for legal advice. This is not a personal attack on you WEAK, you know I love your group, its just clarification and a heads up for all.

I dont agree with you, but fair enough. My suggestions may not be the most safest ways to deal with shit, but I do think people will find my advice more useful. And while you say you have 3 years experience in law enforcement...I've had half a dozen different lawyers instruct me on the do's and dont's and what I can and can't do. The only advice I give is shit that I do myself. I take my own advice and tell people what works for me. If you want to say my advice is shit, fine, but dont forget to include what you would suggest on how to deal with the problem at hand. Dishing out shit you copied & pasted from your google searches doesnt get the job done.

I just saw this today but thanks man this is going to come in handy.

It doesnt matter if you agree with me... its the law. I dont make the laws. Lawyers are awesome advice, but they advise how to win cases, not how to not get your ass arrested on the street. They win their fights in the courtroom. And im not saying your advice is shit WEAK. You are pretty well versed in your laws and u know your shit. But compare it to fixing a car, would u take advice from a freind who tinkers with cars, or one who works on them 5 days a week for a living. I know my shit also....I do it 5 days a week 8 hours a day. It may not be what you guys want to hear... but you not wanting to hear it wont change the legal ramifications of what you do. I dont think allot of the laws are fair... but I dont think its fair to post advice that has not been researched, all the laws you posted in the very first post in this thread have not one single source listed other than your word. I post links from reputable sources to back up my word. I dont see you doing that.

dgodlewski, how do we get away with commiting crimes and filming it?
hypothetical of course.

Ok this is going to be a long one, before I start this I want to be clear this isn’t a competition for who is better at legal advice, I just want you to be as informed as you can possibly be. This is one way I can contribute to the board, and if its not welcome I will leave. But here is a complete rundown of the entire issue here issue by issue:

1.
WEAK: “criminal trespassing on private property that’s open to the public? I dont think so... Maybe if they were told to leave and didn't, or continued to come back”

ME: Any private property is just that…private. Even if the property is open to the public the owner or someone action on the owners behalf has the legal right to refuse service to anyone for any reason at anytime. They also retain the right to tell you not to record their place of business in photo or video form. If you refuse to comply, that is trespassing and if you make a scene in front of people it is disorderly conduct. Both criminally chargeable.

2.
WEAK: “even places with rent-a-pigs have the no-chase policy. Reason being is that they dont want to risk a lawsuit. Id imagine if they are to scared to subdue theives, then them physically seizing your property isnt very likely..”

ME: Security enforcement if acting in direct order from the owner of the property can use reasonable force to stop a crime from happening on the property, no matter the severity. I personally worked at The Mall of America, and we used force on a daily basis. No malls policy are the same as another. The ones where you live may have that, but just as many that do, do not have no chase policies.

3.
WEAK “Actully, we went around Target several years back and followed this guy who was an off duty copy and taunted him on camera. We were filming on private property, but no, neither him or security did shit. Because what youre talking about may be law, but rarely enforced”

ME: its an inevitable part of the job that when off duty your going to run into people you have dealt with or that know what you do for a living. Not a week goes by that I don’t catch shit from some tough guy when I’m not working. Its part of the job, and its up to us to maintain our dignity and be the bigger man and not stoop to the harassers level. If a cop cant handle catching heat from some teenagers hes in the wrong profession. All I can say is, the people who give me shit when I’m off duty don’t get very many breaks when I run into them on duty, we are VERY good at remembering fuck bags.

4.
WEAK: And as for the mall, once again from experinece, mall security has never once attempted to take my camera or touch me. Like many other places, they do not get phyisical or chase. They ask you to leave or they call the police.

ME: This goes back to private property issues, its up to the mall what they do. If they do nothing there is no issue is there? I thought the issue at hand was if someone confiscates your camera not the events of if they don’t.

5.
WEAK: You seriously think a security guard will "detain" you? They can put you under citizens arrest if thats what youre talking about. So can I. So can anyone. But can they sue my employer for millions if I commit false imprisonment? Nah. Cause Im not a company. I have no money to be sued for. But can someone sue them? Yes. And that is why the shit youre talking about doesnt happen.

ME: Citizens arrest is this: holding an individual who has committed a crime until a officer arrives to take him into custody. When you do a citizens arrest you are subject to all the regulations we are, but have none of the official arresting power, the link below will describe this for you, you can be personally sued for violating someone’s rights, or using excessive force just the same as us. The link below will describe it better and this is a quote from the link for those who don’t want to read it all “Making citizen's arrest maliciously or without reasonable basis in belief could lead to civil or criminal penalties. Anybody who makes a citizens arrest should not use more force than is necessary, should not delay in turning the suspect over to the proper authorities, and should never mete out any punishment ... unless willing to face the consequences” Notice this statement is aimed at the PERSON not the COMPANY.
http://www.constitution.org/grossack/arrest.htm
(this is all I could find at the time, I will find a better source when I have more time)

* Side note: The diffrence between Detaining someone and arresting someone is this: Detaining someone means holding them so they cannot leave at the present moment. Arresting means you have read them their rights and they have been formaly charged, only a police officer can do the latter.

6.
WEAK: “If you witness a crime, the law permits you to put that person under citizens arrest under certain cirumstances, and you are permitted use non-deadly force...IE MASE.”

ME: We use what is called the “use of force continuum” when conducting arrest, using ONLY the amount of force necessary to control the situation, if I use more that absolutely nessesary I am civilly and criminally responsible, and you are too in a citizens arrest. If you use mace to effect an arrest, it is considered use of force. When you go to court for this (and you will if you make an arrest) they will ask you what amount of training you had with Chemical Irritant (mace is a brand name). When you say “none” they will ask you then how you came to the decision with no prior training that Chemical Irritant was the least amount of force necessary to effect this arrest, and not call the police to let the trained individuals handle the situation. Fucked you are now. This scenario applies to any type force you would use. Even with all the training we have on a regular basis, our decisions come into question and if it was the least amount necessary. Below you will find a link explaining the “use of force continuum.”
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/lawenforcement/po...ty/chapter1.htm

*side note: if you had done your research you would have found that if somsone commits a felony in your presence on your property, you can use deadly force if nessesary.

7. Now for the biggie
WEAK: First, no one has the right to take your camera away except the police. Civilians sometimes think they can take it from you if your using it for mischief, but they’re wrong. They cant. Period. It doesn’t matter if you’re on their property or on public property. Nothing ever gives them the right to seize your equipment.

ME: Your protection from search and seizure only protect you from government entities searching your things and seizing your property. This right does NOT apply to private individuals while on their private property. If you are on private property your trespassing which can be considered a felony if your coming on the property to commit a criminal act no and the private citizen has the right to confiscate your things and search you at anytime on his property if your unlawfully there, as long as he turns it into an official as evidence once he presses charges. Here is a quote from the link below “At the present time, the Fourth Amendment does not apply to searches carried out by non-governmental employees like private security guards.For example, assume that a shopping mall security guard acting on a pure hunch searches a teenager's backpack. Inside the backpack the guard finds a baggie containing an illegal drug. The guard can detain the teenager, call the police, and turn the drug over to a police officer. The drug is admissible in evidence, because the search was conducted by a private security guard.” They use security guard as the example but you can replace the security guard with “private citizen on his owned property.”
http://www.nolo.com/article.cfm/catId/3900...DE/104/143/ART/


So to wrap this up, your not provided the protection of the 4th amendment if you are on someone’s private property weather it is open to the public or not, and making a citizens arrest carries far more responsibility both criminally and civilly than WEAK first made it to seem.

If someone confiscates your camera on private property, contact your police. But from what I have seen is, if someone is taking your camera away from you, you have fucked up at some point and 9 times out of 10 they have asked you to leave already and you know your in the wrong when it comes down to it. If they detain you, then they must call the police as soon as possible according to law, or they are falsely imprisoning you. Basically, if they tell you to leave, just leave. That’s my advice WEAK.

As for anyone who wants to continue to debate this, please do your research and include links to legit sources supporting your line of thinking. Legal advice is not about opinions on how one of us would do something, as the law does not sway to opinions but at the very highest level of the system which no one here would ever see for a crime related to homegrown.

Every crime has what is called a "statue of limitations." And this is basically the amount of time they have to charge you for a crime once it has been committed. The more serious the crime, the longer they have to charge you for it. For most minor crimes they cant charge you for them 6-8 months after u committed them even if you walk up to an officer and admit it. So... if you happened to film a criminal act, and a police officer happened to see it before the time limit ran out, he could charge you as the video tape is about as much proof as anyone would need in court. But if the officer sees is AFTER the time limit is up, he cant do jack shit. The actual limitations vary state to state, but if you don’t commit a serious crime, your not able to be charged after 6-8 months of filming it. So basically, don’t get caught with the tape during that time and your good.

Thank you, that will come in handy. And what were to happen if a civilian had confinscated your camera and broke it somehow. What can you do about that?